Tuesday, November 6, 2012
Flowers For Algernon - Charlie's Regression F Block
Charlie Gordon participates in a scientific experiment that temporarily triples his I.Q. By the end of the story he has reverted back to his original intelligence level. Does Charlie seem to be the exact same at the end of the story as he was at the beginning? Justify your response with evidence from the text.
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charlie most definitely does not seem to have the same intelligence at the end of the story as he had at the beginning at the end of the story he remebers that he once was intelligent maybe its coming back
I think Charlie was the exact same for intelligence. But he is a different person now. He still remembers important details of when his I.Q. was tripled, & he is aware of his true friends as well.
Elijah, give a little more evidence to justify your opinion please.
it could also be that as he said earlier in the text about some of his written papers is that he almost identifies the papers with a different person other than himself
Kianna, if you think his intelligence is the same, why do you think is has more awareness of his friends, and has retained some of his memories?
to kianna i dont think he has the same intelligence though its possible some of it retained with him
@Elijah I agree ! He regressed to his original self in intelligence. But he still remembers key memories of his experience.
Charlie was definently not the same in the beggining as he was at the end of the story. Charlie knows at the end of his story his friends were making fun of him for being mentally wrong. In the beggining Charlie thought his friends were laughing with him not at him.
Elijah, even if he feels like a different person wrote those papers, it was still him; what do you think that shows about himself as a person? About his intelligence, personality, etc?
charlie does'nt seem to be the exact same at the end because in the beginning he was really dumb, and after the surgery they turned him smart.Towards the end charlie starts to loose his memory again but hes remembering that he was once smart.
I think that Charlie has changed alot in personality and not intelligence because he is still very supersticious as he was before.Charlie has changed because he had a whole new view of how people treated him.
@Mrs. Sullivan like I wrote before to Elijah, he still remembers his important memories like Algernon and the doctors.
@ Juni I agree!
He is different in certain ways but he's not in others. His mind set is different because he doesnt remember things that he did lately. He only remebers things from when he was younger and his IQ wasn't that bad. For example on page 291 he says "Please....please let me not forget how to read and write...." He's losing how to do certain things that the opertaion taught him. I feel like he's a little bit smarter now at the end then at the begining when he had an IQ of 68. He's not as social as he use to be, at the begining he was kind of social with his "friends" and now he's not. He see's a difference in them but he doesn't know how to act.
to junianny i agree that he has become a lot more superstitious than he once was as shown by him carrying his rabbits foot and his penny
Charlie has more common sense then the begining of the stroy he found that it was hard to go back to Donneganas at the end of the story.In the begining he would of thought it was easy because everybody "liked" him.
Charlie does not seem to be the exact same person as he was at the beginning. His experience of being so intelligent has taught him many things that he still carries with him. He has more understanding of everything, like people and himself, than he had before.
to erin kind of he knows that his friends still treated him badly at one point but hes trying to forgive them
Exactly @Elijah !!
@kianna:) i agree with you about charlie being a difderent person. but i dont agree that charlie has the exact same intelligence can you explain that kianna.?
Junianny, do you think that his view of how people treat him is because of his change in intelligence, or something else?
to sophia i agree he obviously still retains the facts that hes friends were mean to him and he understands more of the world now
@People what i meant to say was that he has regressed back to his original self in intelligence but in his personality he's more aware of things unlike before where he forgot everythng that happened to him. But in the end, he didn't forget about Algernon & to put flowers on his grave every week. (:
Kianna, and Junianny I disagree i think his intelligence is not the same could you please show me evidence that it is the same. He still is smart in some way and he still is trying hard to remember how to write and read
@Sophia i agree a lot with what you said now that he has passed through many things he is aware of things that happen around him (:
No, charlie is not the exact same as he was previous to the surgery. Charlie, intellectually is at the same place, however his mindstate has changed. Before the surgery Charlie was a happy-go-lucky person with tons of hope. Where as now he is depressed with no future goals. On page 280 Charlie states that he stays in bed for weeks at a time trying to keep his knowledge from slipping away.Before the surgery Charlie based his life on trying to gain intelligence, where as know he focuses on what he used to be, wanting to get back to that place. Charlies needing to be smart prior to his regression holds him back from being the happy peson he once was.
Yammi, aside from retaining his memories, do you think his intelligence is any different?
@ Yami, I meant to say that he has regressed his intelligence but his personality is stonger & stuff (:
@ ms sullivan
yes i think he was more different then the beggining.
Junianny, do you think that intelligence is linked with personality? How does Charlie's intelligence relate to his superstitious beliefs?
to erin his intelligence isnt the same but he still retains the old intellingence that he used to have it comes out in sporadic spurts
Sophia I agree with you on that one (:
to mandy i agree in the end of the story charlie definitely becomes more and more forlorn
Erin, you mentioned Charlie is a little bit smarter but you then talk about him not being as social. Do you think that's evidence of him being smarter?
@kianna oh okayy now i undertand : )
@ Erin, I SAID THAT HE IS REGRESSING HIS INTELLIGENCE WHICH MEANS THAT HE IS LOOSING THE ABILITY OF SPEECH/ LANGUAGE/ WRITING AS HE WAS DURING THE SURGERY (:
Sophia, do you have any evidence him being more understanding of people?
@Erin Oops... sorry... caps lock :)
Elijah I dont get what you're saying. He still has intelligence and he is different now then he was at the begining.
@ Mandy
i agree with you :)
@Mrs. Sullivan i find that his intelligence didn't decrease to such a low level as it was at the begining. His social skills were what changed not fully back. He has more emotion which I find helps his social skills. "I got choked up so I had to turn around and go into the supply room so he wouldn't see me cry . Its good to have good friends." pg 292
@Mrs.Sullivan I think it is because of his experience after he has become intelligent and dumb again.He now knows how people treated him and is aware of what can happen now.
Elijah, what's your evidence that Charlie understands more of the world now?
i think that charlie definitly understands people better than he did before
@ Mrs. Sullivan this is fun ! We should do this more often ! (:
Mandy, how do you think self-awareness and happiness are related? And, how does intellect play a part in self-awareness and happiness?
charlie is not the same after the operation. He seems smarter than he was before the operation. He can realize things that he couldn't before the operation. Like the time he entered miss kinian's class. He realized that it wasn't the original class that he was in.
At the end of the story I feel like Charlie isnt realy the same as he was in the begining. I feel this because he is acting alitte strange for example he is seaming depresed. he seams this way because he isnt realy trying very hard and is giving up. In the begining he was very willing to do anything and he was alwais happy know he does it becausehe has to:(
Kianna,
Nice caps lock haha(: anyways he is losing it but is it as bad as it was at the begining?
to erin charlie still has intelligence he understands that was once smart but now that everybody who knew him feels bad for him he understands that people were once mean to him
292No Charlie is not exactly the same as he was at the beginning of the story. His mind set on people and friendship has changed in many ways. For example at the beginning of the story charlie didn't know how he was being treated, he didn't understand what it ment to have freinds.Charlie just thought that everyone around him was his friend and he didnt realize how his actions affected other people. Charlie just lived his life without the thought of other people being being affected by what he did. By the end of the story Charlies view on these things changed dramaticly. Charlie knows how other people feel, and he has realized how his actions affect the people around him. For example on page 292 charlie says "evry body feels sorry at the factery ant i dont want that eather..." and that is why I belive that charlie is not the same as he was in the beginning of the story.
@Erin shankss (: it is as bad as it was in the beginning... it's just his personality that has changed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol (:
In my opinion, Charlie does not seem to be the exact same as he was at the beginning of the story by the end of the story. He is mostly worse than he was at first because his memory has been bad as he has been regresssing. Also, he does not seem to know when time passes by and he needs physical things to remind him of what day it is. An example of this is on page 289, "I don't know where the week went. Todays Sunday I know because I can see through my window people going to church."
An emotional difference between Charlie at the beggining and end of the story is that he did not have feelings for Miss Kinnian at first, but by the end he loved her. This is shown on page 291, "I told her I didn't like her anymore. I told her I didnt want to be smart anymore. Thats not true. I still love her and I still want to be smart but I had to say that so shed go away."
@elijah @erin,
I have to agree with elijah on this one, Charlies social skills are so much better than the begining.
Charlie does not seem the same at the end of the story then how he was at the beginning. I think that Charlie is worse than at the beginning because at the beginning Charlie could read and understand more than at the end,like on page 290, when he says "I have to read the same thing over and over again because I dont know what it means." But instead of not understanding people and knowing how people make fun of him like in the beginning he still knows that like when he says "I got mad and chased him out because he was making fun of me like they all used to" on page 291. Before, Charlie could read books like when he read Robinson Crusoe but on page 292 he says "and now he cant even reed a book."
@osvaldo i dont agree with you....
Mandy, I agree Charlie's personality is definitely different; what about his intelligence level? Do you think the two are linked?
@ Amanderss I agree with you ! (:
to kianna im not sure i think that he is more intelligent than before and his personality changed he isnt as gullible now
Matt,
I agree with your comment! He is more aware with his surroundings! he knows more about the way of life now that he has experienced the oposite of his pre-surgery intelligence.
@osvaldo i dont agree with you either ... he is the not same ! :/ his intelligence is regressing not getting BETTER!
@Ms.Kill,Yes because his intelligence helps him have an other view of what people think,say and do to him.It relates to him not knowing that its not true.Now that he is dumb again he doesnt have knowledge to know that it's not real.
Kianna, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I am too.
Matt, okay
to kianna his intelligence regressed but i think that after a time it stopped and he came out with a little more intelligence than before
Charlie does change from before the surgery to when he has completely regressed. Prior to the operation Charile couldnt understand that Joe and Frank weren't his friends but after, when they were genuinly good to him, he can understand that and he knows that they weren't so nice to hime before.
@mandy i agree. He is more aware of his surroundings and he does know more about the way of life.
@ Mrs. Sullivan :) :) :)
Sammie, Charlie's certainly not the same as he was after his surgery, but has he gone back to what he was like at the beginning of the story? Does he seem to have the same intelligence level as he did at the beginning?
@ sammie i agree with you on the first part but i think that charlie knew alittle bit still but not as much and that was because the e ffect of the surgery was going away.
@Cesar,
I would have to agree with you.
@ Elijah HIS INTELLIGENCE IS REGRESSING AT THE END OF THE STORY BUT HIS PERSONALITY IS MORE AWARE OF THINGS EVEN AFTER THE SURGERY !!!
(CAPS LOCK ON PURPOSE) LOL (:
to cesar i dont think he completely regressed as you said he knows more about his "friends" than before
Matt, I agree with what you said about charlies ideas on friendship changing.
Osvaldo, are there any other moments when it seems he's smarter than he was before the surgery?
hey everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
Mandy, Do you mean that since he got his surgery and he knows more about people and life that now since his intelligence has gone away a little that he still understands how people treated him and how to see the world??
@ Junii ! what do you think about his intelligence? regressing or improving (at the end of the story)
Kianna, please stop yelling at people. No one likes to be yelled at, either in person or on the computer. Thank you?
Elijah, what evidence do you have that Charlie "came out with a little more intelligence than before..."?
to kianna YES BUT HIS INTELLIGENCE STOPPED REGRESSING HE WAS ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THAT JOE AND FRANK ONCE WERENT HIS FRIENDS
@Amanda,
Thanks
Cesar, did u mean him? not hime
@ hii kiannaa
@Cesar,
You're welcome.
@ Mrs kill charlie does seem to have more intellingence than beforehand he certainly has more common sense
Sorry Erin I didn't meen him
Cesar, I agree with your statement about his freinds and how he now knows that they treated him bad. Do you think that if he regresses more, he will forget how his friends treated him?
@ Elijah yes Elijah but that was DURING the surgery im talking about AFTER ! (:
@Mrs.Sullivan yes he does seem to have the same intellegence that he had at the beginning and maybe a little less than what he had before.
Cesar, you didnt mean him??
Cesar, what? what is a hime?
@Kianna,
I think his intelligence is regressing but he still has the same personality *-*
TO EVERYBODY
whoops sorry guys wrote it wrong ment to say that he was not smarter than before and that he couldn't relize that he wasn't in miss kinians class :]
@ Cesar you confused me... lol
@Amanda,
I think he will forget (if he were to regress even more). Remember he does have a form of amnesia.
@ kianna that was after the surgery near the end as well right before he left
Yammi, can you explain why you don't agree with Osvaldo?
Amanda do you think that he will regress more?
@Junianny yeah that's what i said too ! (:
Junianny, I agree with you on what you said to Kianna
@Kianna (:
Mrs. Sullivan, Charlie's new understanding of people is shown through how he prepared himself for being made fun of before he got back to work. Charlie tells himself that "if they make fun of you dont get sore because you remember their not so smart as you once thot they were. And besides they were once your friends and if if they laughed at you that doesn't mean anything because they liked you too". He now knows that his friends are not as great and intelligent people that he believed they were. Also Charlie realizes being friends isn't just about laughing and being funny, friends are there to stick up and give support for you.
@Sammie
I agree with you because it seems that the surgery has affected his intelligence.
Sorry guys i ment to say " I didn't meen hime". #i got confused
Amanda, I think your question about Charlie forgetting how his friends treated him if he regresses more is a good one. Do you think he will regress more?
@Erin,Why?? Can you give me proof? :/
i think that his once superior intellect didnt just vanish maybe its still there he just has to relearn what he lost
@Cesar,
We don't know if he will regress more because the story ended, but if it didnt he would still keep regressing until the point he forgets everything he did once know.
mandy i agree with you but i think he isnt as smart as he was in the beginning because his spelling is worse for example he spelt back, bak
Cesar, I'm not sure. I feel like he might. Do you think he will regress more? and also what does meen and hime mean?
@ Elijah he figured out about Joe & Frank WHILE the surgery remember? There was a petition to get him out of there. Quote ; p.292 Paragraph 2 Just before July 28 "It's good to have friends"
This was when the surgery regressed. That's my proof (:
Mrs Sullivan I asked Amanda The same thing.
@Elijah,
explain
Ambreen, you have some interesting examples. What do you think the emotional change in Charlie shows about his intellectual change?
@matt i dont think that he will regress more than he already has it seems like hes stopped regressing and even going back onto the road to recovery
@Elijah
support your answer and elaborate
Sammie and Sophia, I'd love to hear some more from both of you. You bring up some interesting points.
I ment "mean" and "him". #I'm getting more confused
Mrs.Sullivan,
I do not beleive charlies intelligence and personality are linked. I think his intelligence level has not changed to the point where he is, from the beginning of the story. I do think that his personality changed the way he thinks, however not changing his intelligence.His spelling, and grammar are like before. However I do beleive his state of mind has changed, now being more aware of the outside world. I do not think this has necessarily changeed the level of his intelligence.
Elijah, can you provide evidence for your argument that his regression has stopped and he's on the road to recovery?
Oh Okay @Cesar lol now i get it (:
@kianna he remembered at the end of the story after all of his intelligence "supposedly" vanished than why did he remember having bad experiences with joe and frank
@Elijah,
I disagree because he was forgeting how to read a write,Which were things he could do in other languages so he lost it and i think it will be hard for him to win it back!:/
@Elijah
We don't know that he's completely stopped regressing it could've just slowed down. Remember it was happening really fast before.
Sorry if I confused you guys.
@Junianny
My point exactly.
Mrs.Sullivan, I think that he might regress more, its really hard to say because the story ended. But, i feel if the story was continued based on what happend to Algernon, Charlie would eventually regress to the point of not being able to remember anything.
to josh
any more deatials?
*seem
@ matt i say that hes going back into recovery because of the fact that at the end of the story he remebers that it is good to be smart
Junianny,
Well i think his intelligence has got lower since hes been losing his grammar, spelling and how to read however his personality has chnaged a little he can tell how people act around him and who is true to him.
Aww Byee (:
Elijah, why do you think Charlie can regain what he lost? Is there any evidence to support that theory? It didn't work with the animal test subjects.
I love the part where he says "I'm in love with Ms.Kinnian <3333
My favorite part in Flowers For Algernon ! (: & the last sentence of the story "P.P.S Please if you get a chanse put some flowers on Algernons grave in the bak yard...." <3
shaquakk
Byeeee :(
fishifhsfishfishfishfishfishfishfishfishcthulhu
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