Tuesday, November 6, 2012
Flowers For Algernon - Charlie's Regression E Block
Charlie Gordon participates in a scientific experiment that temporarily triples his I.Q. By the end of the story he has reverted back to his original intelligence level. Does Charlie seem to be the exact same at the end of the story as he was at the beginning? Justify your response with evidence from the text.
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Wow, you guys are being very careful about making sure you have evidence to support your opinions. I've never had a class take this long to formulate their responses before. Nice job.
Charlie is exactly the same as before the operation. Once again he has bad spelling and grammar.also, he has forgotten everything he learned before the operation. he looks back on his writing and doesnt even understand it, like on page 288. once again he uses simple words instead of longer ones, which he admits on page 290. he even took back his job at the factory.
Thanks.
Alex, what do you think going back to his old job at the factory shows about him?
I don't belive Charlie is the same in the end. In the July 25th progress report it shows you he still somewhat understands social skills. For example he writes "I told her I didn't like her any more. I told her i didnt want to be smart any more. Thats not true. I still love her and I still want to be smart but I had to say that so shed go away." It proves he understands more than he did in the beginning before he had the operation. He knows that what he says will make her go away, and will make her sad. before the opertation he did not understand any of this. When people made fun of him or used him as the punch line of their jokes he laughed along with them because he did not understand. Though he has regressed Charlie is still smarter than he was before, even if its not by a lot.
Charlie is not the exact same person because in the beggining of the story Charlie thought Miss Kinnian was just a nice person, but at the end of the story he still feels something for Miss Kinnian. On page 291 it states " Miss Kinnian came to the door but I said go away I dont want to see you. She cried and I cried too but I wouldnt let her in because I didnt want her to laugh at me. I told her I didn't like her any more. I told her I didnt want to be smart any more. Thats not true. I still love her and I still want to be smart but I had to say that so shed go away."
I think he is the same and different. He is the same spelling wise, on page 271 "r. Strauss says I can have it back after the operashun.", and on page 292 "...then iwas before the operashun.but hes more aware on page 292 "Then all of a suddin I remembered some things about the operashin..."
I think that Carlie Gordon is not completely the way he used to be. He is more aware of everything around him, espesialy how his mind is going away so fast. He is also more awere of how people treat him. For example on pg 292 he gets picked on by one of the new workers at the factory, but he now knows that he is being picked on.
Charlie does not seem to be the exact same at the end of the story as he was in the beginning. His IQ and intelligence level remain the same as they were in the beginning, but his personality and outlook on life change because of his experience with the operation. For example, when Charlie was talking to the doctor who Mrs. Flynn introduced him to, he noticed that he was being made fun of, whereas he might not have noticed before the operation. "...he was making fun of me the way they all used to."(pg 291)
When Mrs. Kinnian came to visit Charlie, he didn't let her in and he lied to her because he didn't want her to laugh at him and he knew it would make her go away. He has a better understanding of normal emotions and reactions than he did at the beginning of the story.
Ben, do you think he's more the same, or more different?
Charlie Gordan is not the exactly the same as he was at the begining. His IQ may be the same but he understands more he's not as litteral as he once was but insted more social. Like on Pg 292 he get picked on by one of the new men that worked there after Charlie had left and Joe Carp told him to back off.After this event, Charlie realizes that Joe and Frank had change because it also says that Frank was cheaking in on him."Later Frank Reilly came over and said Charlie if anybody bothers you or trys to take advantage you call me or Joe and we will set em straight." "It's good to have friends."
I agree with Alex and Breeana
Daniel, when he realizes that people at the factory are treating him poorly, that's when he's still a genius. What about at the end when he's regressed back to his previous IQ of 68?
Charlie doesn't seem the exact same as he was at the beginning of the text. He has become more aware of everything happening around him. He can tell when people are making fun of him and he wasn't as innocently rude as he was before.
One example of this is that on (Pg. 291) on July 27, he knew when the new man at the factory was making fun of him, while as he wouldn't of known at the beginning of the story.
Another example of his change of personality is when on (Pg. 292) on July 28, he could tell that Miss Kinnian and everyone at the factory felt bad for him. If he was the same as in the beginning of the story, he would have been very confused and wouldn't know what they were sad about.
I don't think that Charlie is the same as he was in the beginning. He realizes some things now that he didn't before. For example, he knows a lot more about the people around him. On July 25, Miss Kinnian came to his house. If he had never had the surgery, he would not have been able to make her go away. Because he had the surgery, though, he knew exactly what he had to say to offend her enough so that she would leave. Also, being smart gave Charlie even more motivation to learn. On page 292 he says, "I remember a little bit how nice I had a feeling with the blue book that has the torn cover when I red it. Thats why Im gonna keep trying to get smart so I can have that feeling agen. Its a good feeling to know things and be smart." Now that he knows what it feels like to acomplish something, he will try even harder to "be smart."
Ben, why do you agree? Explain your thoughts, please.
Breeana, he hadn't finished deteriorating by july 25. by the last progress report he is the same as at the beginning.
No i don't believe Charlie is the exact same as he was at the beginning of the story before he had the operation. This is because before Charlie couldn't understand anyone at all in addition to not being able to read or write. An example of this is that when his "friends" at the factory made fun of him and he didnt even know what was going on, Charlie thought everyone liked him but that was not the case. After the operation and at the end of the story, Charlie's intelligence started rapidly deteriorating. Although his understanding of people did not return completely to its original state. On page 291 it says "I told myself Charlie if they make fun of you dont get sore because they are not as smart as you once thought they were. And besides they were once your friends and if they laughed at you that doesnt mean anything because they liked you too." This shows that even at the end of the book, Charlie is different from what he was originally. He knows that people are making fun of him whereas before he had no clue what was happening.
I think he's a little more different now, because i thimk his social skills have improved In the July 25th progress report it shows that he still has some social skills. Mrs. Sullivan
Yes I do think that Charlie Gordon is the exact same as he was in the beginnning of the story. The reason I think this is because he states in June 22 (Pg. 288), "I'm forgertting things that I learned recently." A second example I think that Charlie seems to be the exact same at the end of the story as he was in the beginning is in June 23 (Pg. 289) he states in three sentences this, "Then I realized I could no longer read German. I tested myself in other languages. All gone." Charlie is loosing the intelligence from the operation, his spelling, grammar, thoughts, memory, and he knows that it's happening to him in the process. My last example of evidence from the text showing that Charlie is becomming the exact same at the end of the story as he was at the begging is in July 10 (Pg. 290) he states, "I try to read a little bit every day, mostly stories, but sometimes I have to read the same thing over and over again because I dont know what it means." All in all I do think that Charlie Gordon seems to be the exact same at the end of the story as he was in the begging in the story, Flowers for Algernon.
(to Mrs. Sullivan)
I think it shows that he had forgotten that frank and joe weren't his friends.
Jenny, do yout think that by the very end of the story, when Charlie accidentally goes back to Miss Kinnian's class that he still loves her? Or does he just think of her as his teacher as he did at the beginning?
No, Charlie is not the exact same as he was in the begining of the story because Charlie experienced life in a different way than he had before which in a sense changed him as a person. Some examples of how he has changed as a person are in the begining of the book charlie didnt understand how he was suposed to act or why people laughed at him but after his sugery he got to experience the feeling of having a normal I.Q. Once that got taken away again he had seen life in a different way and now he understands more of how the world works. I honestly believe that since Charlie got the opperation it made him a better person.
No i think charlie seems to be diffrent to how he was in the beggining of the story. In the beggining of the story Charlie seemed to be clueless to many things for example on page 268. It says "i told him I saw a inkblot. He said yes and it made me feel good...". Charlie always thought literal for everything and seemed like he didn't understand most things like when his friends were making fun of him. Now at the end of the story when Charlie regressed and went to how he use to be he doesnt seem to be the same as how he use to be. He relizes how Frank Reilly and Joe Carp are really his friends then how he use to think they were before. for example on page 292, iut says "I said thanks Frank and I got choked up so I had to turn around and go into the supply room so he wouldnt see me cry. Its good to have friends". At the end of the story Charlie may have become less smart, but he relizes and notices more things so he is less clueless than he was before.
Alex, you're right, but don't you think that Charlie's memory is a little bit better? He's able to remember some of the things he learned and some of his experiences.
Dylan, I think he is slightly more aware of everything around him. Even though his intelligence is the same, his social skills has improved.
I think Ren is right but his spelling and grammar has returned to the way it was
Dylan he's not exactaly the same because in my opinion he understands when he's getting laffed at or laffed with like with the new man on Pg 292
(To: ALEX)
what about the fact that Charlie is more aware of others. He understands now when they make fun of him or when they are being sincere. For example in progress repot July 27th when he is giving himself a "pep talk" he says " Charlie if they make fun of you dont get sore because you remeber their not so smart as you once thot they were." It proves that he is able to realize that people will make fun of him and he just has to be the bigger person and think of all the great things he has done.
hold on starting to spell wronge sorry reading at the same time
Alex, does it matter if he remembers how poorly they treated him? He went back because he needed money.
TYPO! Mrs. Sullivan you said "yout" instead of "you".
@BeN You spelled think wrong, you spelled it "thimk." (:
True, but it shows that he is forgetting things.
I know Mrs.Sullivan but he still knows that people make fun of him.
Alex, do you think that Charlie's socail skills and understanding of people are exactly the same as before the operation?
Emma, it sounds as if you think Charlie is better off having had the operation, even though the results didn't last. Do you think the benefits outweighed the risks?
I think Charlie did the right thing to go back to his old job and tell his "friends" what the surgery was really for. I think thats why Joe and Frank started treating Charlie differently. I know this because on page 291 it said "Mr.Donnegan was very nice when I came back and asked him for my old job of janitor. First he was very suspicous but I told him what happened to me then he looked very sad and put his hand on my shoulder and said Charlie Gordon you have guts." Another one is also on page 291 and it said " One of the new men who came to work there after I went away made a nasty crack he said Charlie I heard your a very smart fella a real quiz kid. Say something intelligent. I felt bad but Joe Carp came over and grabbed him by the shirt and said leave him alone you lousy cracker or Ill break your neck."
@ALEX I agree she had a "TYPO."
I agree, Breeana. Charlie may not have as much knowledge as he did before his regression, but he seems to be a lot less naive. He knows much more about the people around him and how they feel, what makes them upset.
Naddacy, please join the conversation...
Dylan, i believe that Charlies perseption of life is different and that hes not 100% the same.
@allison Yes.
Breeana i agree with you response to Alex...^^^
@Allison TYPO you spelled social wrong, you spelled it "socail."
(dylan) Ididn;t see the typo.
Okay everyone, let's pay attention to the ideas rather than the typos please. = )
No Charlie seems like he's more worst after. Before(the surgery) he didn't do proper grammar or spelling ,or punctuation. Now Charlie is starting to lose his memory slowly.
One example is when he thought he was still in Miss Kinnian's class ,he realized when she started crying. Another part is when he had to ask for his job back. When he told himself that "if any one makes fun of you just ignore it". He was able to forgive the people that made fun of him for doing that. Mrs. sullivan I joined see
(dylan) there's another 2 for me.
@BeN I did look harder. @Mrs. Sullivan OK =[
Andrew you spelled wrog wronge.
Alex, doesnt Charlie know in his head that people still make fun of him? Before the operation he didnt know what they would laugh about. He thought they were laughing with him, not at him.
Yes and no mrs. Sullivan. Yes because he has a better perseption of life now. No because it was dangerous and it did not last.
@Naddacy i disagree i think he's better after because he understands more that he did before the operation
Jenny
I disagree. I think Charlie got his job back because Mr. Donnegan felt bad for him. If you think about everything he's been through in the hopes of coming out smarter than before, wouldn't you feel awfully guilty for ostracizing him? I also think that's why Frank and Joe decided to be his friends again.
@Naddacy i disagree i think he's better after because he understands more that he did before the operation
Alex,
I think Frank, and Joe are his friend beacause of how Joe approached the new guy, and the way Frank came over to charlie to support him(pg.292).
Guys Charlie realizes that he can forgive people after frank and joe stood up for him in the end...
@Andrew My mistake =] Haha!
@Dylan
the fact that he realizes the he is losing everything he laerned is proof that he is still samrter than he was before. he knows what is going on and that there is no way to stop it.
To Ms.Sullivan:
I think Charlie liked Miss Kinnian like a teacher because for a moment he forgot all about the surgery. When Miss Kinnian ran out of the classroom he remember some parts of the surgery and thought I'm stupid.
Naddacy, you mentioned that Charlie is able to forgive people who hurt him in the past. Don't you think that shows he's thinking differently than before? Previously he didn't realize people had hurt him.
I agree with Andrew, he has much more social skills then before the "operashun"
emma even though it was dangerous wasnt it good because he got to experience what it was like to be smart and changed how he is now
@Naddacy Yeah, I think that too, he actually has friends!
Another example that Charlie isn't the same as before is on page 292, in the July 28 prgoress report. He says, "I dont want Miss Kinnian to feel sorry for me. Evry body feels sorry at the factery and I dont want that eather so Im going someplace where nobody knows that Charlie Gordon was once a genius and now he cant even reed a book or rite good." This shows he has a better understanding of emotions and reactions. He also says, "I lerned a lot of things I never even new were in this world and Im grateful that I saw it all for a littel bit."
Anonymous was me sorry. ^^ I clicked to fast.
Oh really andrew well Charlie is forgeting who he is and how he sees himself as someone who isn't smart again...
Naddacy he is loosing memory fastly not slowly.
ren i agree with you agreeing with andrew because he can talk to people better than he use to be thats why many people laughed at him
@Lara I agree.
@allison in the last proggress report he says "its easy to make friends if you let pepul laff at you".That makes me think he forgot. and yes, ben, i know laugh is spelled wrong.
emma/chigozie
Yes i'd do it any day to experience how it is to be smart.
i agree with Ren/Andrew
Cool i guess but how were you doing that to fast its just a glance?
@ Naddacy:
He's worst at the end of the story because he was forgetting all the things he worked for. If you were loosing your memory wouldn't you feel the exact same thing? Charlie is really depressed and he doesn't want to go back to be the same person in the begining.
Question @BeN why is the N in your name uppercase? It should be lowercase. @BeN I agree I would do it too.
@Naddacy he does remember after. but in bed while he was regressing he didn't
BeN you woukd do it anyday even though you know you would have a likley chance of becoming less smart as you were before and having a chance of death?
Do you think Charlie's IQ has dropped as low as it's going to, or will he regress even more after the story ends?
BeN you woukd do it anyday even though you know you would have a likley chance of becoming less smart as you were before and having a chance of death?
@BeN Yeah, that'd be cool to experience being a genious for a month or so.
@Andrew I agree^
@ALEX
in the last progress report he is not the same it says " And P.S. please tell Dr Nemur not to be such a grouch when pepul laff at him and he woud have more frends." even though the spelling is bad you can tell he is smarter because he is telling Dr. Nemur to relax and he will get more friends. he realizes that being uptight and mean is not a way to make friends. This is proof that he still has social skills.
daniel be quiet theres no point at all to argur short person
I agree with Lara.... :))))
thanks Dylan
Alex, yes he did say that but i think he just believes that it is more complicated to stand up for yourself, rather than just letting people get what they want. I dont think that proves he is the exact same as before.
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